westerosorting | Win or Die

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Win or Die

Name: Liran
How did you find out about the community? If it's through an LJ user, please tell us who it is: Found it while looking for AsoIaF pictures
Age:19

Location: Port Townsend, Washington State

Occupation: Computer Engineer.

Describe your ideal house/home. Please go into as much detail as possible, and be sure to include your ideal geographical location in the description!

I’ve always been a fan of high places, the higher the better. My ideal house would probably be a fairly large stone affair that was well-insulated inside and finished with wood. My room would be at least three stories up, possibly more, in a tower. There would be secret passages everywhere and enough room for both my books and my family to fit.

The house would be furnished with wood and antiques from everywhere. There’s just something special about knowing how old something is. I’d like my house to have a feeling having been there forever and know that it will be there forever more. That said, it would be very modern in some ways. My office would have the best tech money could buy and the kitchen would be decked out with top-of-the-line equipment.

I love my Pacific Northwest with all my heart (except the cold, but it’s worth it,) and my tower-house would be high on a cliff. Somewhere on the coast of Puget Sound with a proper view of the sea and the mountains but close enough to town that I could go to the library.

Off the water, the wind is so strong that it feels like you could just leap up and go flying wherever you wanted. The rainforest is well-named, it does rain a lot, but there’s a reason it’s so beautiful here.

2. Name three things you are afraid of. Explain.

Dentists.

I don’t really have a reason, save that laying in a chair and getting jabbed with sharp objects really isn’t something I enjoy in the least, and the noise the drill makes hurts my ears. I tend to have sobbing hysterical meltdowns when I have to go, despite it being necessary.

Loosing my sister.

She’s one of the most important things in my life. She keeps me sane during my bouts of black depression and somehow manages to help me make friends. I’m her Nee-sama and she relies on me to help her stay safe and to ground her out when she’s getting too exited about a bad idea.

The dark.

Yeah, I know, 19 is a bit old to be terrified of the dark, but I really am. The feeling of not being able to see, and not knowing what’s in the room with me, scares the hell out of me. I have to sleep with a nightlight because I have panic attacks if I wake up and can’t see.

3. Imagine you’re given the classic opportunity: a genie granting you three wishes. What would you wish for? Wishing for more wishes is not permitted!

I’d love to say that world peace and an end to all strife is what I’d wish for, but it’s really not. I suppose it’s cold-hearted of me, but frankly, I don’t see a way to end all war without a whole lot of people dying because war is what they want and what they do well. Humans aren’t always good at heart and a lot of the bad ones don’t want to change. There’s a reason prisons were invented.

My wishes would be:

For every wish I or any of my loved ones ever make to come out exactly as they intend it to, including this one. None of this “well, you phrased it that way… I thought that’s what you wanted…” Midas-touch trickster crap.

Enough money to keep myself and those I care for in comfort for the rest of out lives and those of our descendants. Anyone who says money isn’t happiness has never been poor enough to know otherwise and doesn’t understand how unhappy a lack there-of can make you.

The ability to choose any superpower to have for a whole day (midnight to midnight, not from dawn to dusk), every day, for the rest of my life. AKA, I could choose flight one day, and at the end of 24 hours, I could choose flight again, or choose something else. These powers would be fully controlled and as strong as possible without overloading my body.

4. In your life so far, what accomplishment are you the most proud of? You can list more than one if you have trouble deciding.)

My internship for a television station. Working at the station was one of the most rewarding experiences I’ve ever had, both in knowledge and in personal growth. I loved working there and I intend to go to college to major in computer engineering because of that internship.

5. Which of the following is most important to you: Love, Money, Knowledge, Family, Friendship, Adventure, or Pleasure? Which is the least important to you?

Knowledge and Family are equally tied, but for different reasons. For myself, knowledge is my one true love. I love reading and researching, even when my interests confuse everyone around me. My family on the other hand (my chosen family, my relatives are a bunch of vultures waiting for my grandmother to pass away) are the mainstay that keeps me upright. They drag me out of my library/den/computer room to ensure I eat and keep me social. They bring me joy in a completely different way then my research.

For least important, I’d have to go with Money, despite my earlier wish. Money is easily gotten and easily lost. It comes and goes. Life is a lot easier with it, but manageable on not very much. It is necessary for life as we know it, but there are ways to get around not having a lot of it.

6. What's one quote (or passage, song lyric, etc.) that effectively describes you and your values?

‘Freedom begins with a game of chance’

Maliguenua, by Blackmore’s Night

7. How do you manage your money? On that note, how important is money/financial security to you?

Money is something I’m not actually all that good at. The only way I seem to be able to avoid spending it is if it’s not in my possession. Financial security is important to comfort and happiness, but on the whole, life is okay even without it.

8. Name (and elaborate on) some of your hobbies. What are your favorite things to do outside of school/the office?

I read more then anything else I do. Books, articles, newspapers, fanfic. Anything. Even when I watch movies actually, so that if I’m bored by something on the TV I can focus on my book. My art comes in a close second. I spend a lot of time playing my music or drawing in my sketchbooks, even a bit of embroidery once in a while.

Nothing quite matches a sunny rooftop and a good book.

9. Name (and elaborate on) your top three BEST and top three WORST qualities (personality-related, not physical).

Best:

My artistic tendencies.

I love my artwork and working with instruments or art supplies is something I’m good at. My creativity helps me think about what I want to do about anything that’s happening in my life at the time.

My planning.

I try to always have a plan. It doesn’t have to be a perfect plan, but a good one helps everything go smoother. I plan out whatever I’m going to do for the day while I get ready in the morning. Every plan is subject to changes, but just having one is nice. To my friends, I’m the strategist, because I’m the best of all of us at doing it.

My loyalty.

To my family and to my friends, I am exceedingly loyal. Sometimes to the point of being stupid, though I usually seem to be the one stepping in to help them out of situations. That doesn’t mean that I won’t tell them off if I think they’re being stupid though.

Worst:

I’m paranoid.

Sometimes overly so, and it causes as many problems as is prevents. I don’t trust people on the whole, and it shows. It makes being social difficult. I’m not likely to be kidnapped off the street because of that caution, but I react very badly to being surprised, even by people I know.

I’m controlling.

In a crisis, being bossy is a good thing, because usually, everyone’s flipping out. During downtime it’s a problem because people often resent being told what to do when they’re not panicking.

I hold grudges.

It takes me a long time to forgive people. The greater damage the event did to me, the longer I’m likely to stay angry. Apologies help, but chances are that they wouldn’t fix things all the way. Even something small can stay with me for years and make me dislike someone.

A Song of Ice and Fire Related

1.Who are your favorite three characters in the series?

Daenarys Targaryen

She’s the queen all little girls dream of being. Daenarys took the card fate dealt her, and then threw them out to make her own game. There are things that scare her, and things she’s unsure about, but ultimately she keeps going foreword. Dany has a goal, and come hell or high water, she’s going to reach it. She loves her dragons, and I like that she doesn’t just see them as exotic pets or the standard of her house, they’re also her beloved children. Admittedly, children that eat people and breath flame, but still.

Tyrion Lannister

He’s an evil conniving cunning genius. He makes a plan, and then he runs off and makes six more that all could work just as well. He’s a dwarf and he knows it, but he doesn’t let it slow him down any, and even uses it to make people underestimate him. I like that he’s flawed, but works around it. And that he likes dragons adds points.

Ser Barristan

His loyalty is admirable. I liked that he didn’t change sides at the Trident, but rather fought for his prince and his (somewhat insane) king. He chose to follow them again when he went to Daenarys, but did the wise thing and took a good look at her first. His unending loyalty to Rhaegar is cool. It’s obvious that he admired his prince a great deal.

2. Who are your least favorite three characters in the series?

Joffrey Barathion

He was stupid. From start to finish he was stupid. He didn’t do all the things he should have, and did do all the things that he never should have come near. If he’d only had a smidge of sense he would have coddled Sansa Stark and curbed his violent tendencies just a little. But he didn’t and someone killed him for it.

Robert Barathion

Again with the stupid. He could have done a lot of things that would have changed his fate, and by choice, he did none of them. His hand in raising Joffrey shows very clearly in the foolish traits they shared. He also killed Rhaegar, who would have been a much more interesting character then Robert.

Shae
She betrayed Tyrion. Stabbed him in the back. She didn’t have to, she could have lied, but she didn’t. Yeah, they probably offered her more gold then you could shake a castle at, but the fact remains. Tyrion took good care of her. The least she could do is not try to get him killed.

3. #1 Favorite moment in all of ASOIAF so far?

I’m tied between the hatching of the dragons, and the description of Rhaegar’s death.

To be honest, the dragons are what really hooked me in the first book, and I couldn’t help but love how their hatching happened. I can’t wait to see where they go next.

On the other hand, Rhaegar’s story, sad though it is, has such beautiful dramatic imaging that I had to re-read it three or four times. It’s still really sad though, because I like Rhaegar a lot and I want to know more of his story. I hope we get to see more of it soon.

4. In your dream-world, how would you like to see the series end?

I think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s, and that that union was consensual. If that’s the case, then he’ll find out about it sooner or later.

I think that when Jojen and Meera meet Jon for the first time, he’ll find out, because their father Howland Reed was there for Jon’s birth. I suspect they know about the whole thing.

I am looking forward to the final battle, when Daenarys has her dragons. I suspect that Tyrion will be on one dragon and Jon or Arya will be on the other. Probably Jon. It would make sense for him to see that if she can’t have children, then when Dany dies the realm will go to war again. If he were heir, that wouldn’t happen. It would mean leaving his vows and the wall, but he’d do it. Reluctantly, but he would.

A big part of me thinks that the wall may end up falling. Ice and dragonfire don’t mix so well. Add whights and it turns into a bigger mess then it already was.

I’d just love it if Dany ended up pregnant and the books ended with her baby being born alive and well.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm getting a pretty strong Tyrell vibe from your application, possibly because your ideal home is very much similar to mine. Actually, my first thought would be Baratheon, but that's not an option. Emphasis on plans, control, family also point to my house. Your asoiaf-related preferences are pretty much the exact opposite of mine, but that's where the fun is for the Roses, right?

So I say, Tyrell.

Oh, and it's absolutely natural to be afraid of the dark. I'm 33, and I often imagine some freaky things in the dark myself.

Heheh, I'm glad you didn't vote for me in Barathion, I really have no respect at all for the canon charicters it it. Not one of them seems to have two braincells to rub together. And for all his whining, Robert Barathion doesn't remember that he is also technicly 'dragon spawn' as his grandmother Rhaelle was a Targaryen.

I like the Baratheons - Stannis is one of my very favorite chars, actually. Come to the Tyrells, and I'll convince you that Stannis is the rage :)

But for all his claims of honor, Stannis continues to do the dishonorable. He allowed Melisindre to curse his opponents, was willing to let her burn a child alive, even threw his faith to the winds. That seems to me to be the actions of a total hypocrite.

I see his reasoning, though I certanly wouldn't do the same, but it seems that for every move he makes, he gets farther away from what he claims to beleave.

Awww...you don't even like Renly?

I like him, I think he's great charicter, but I don't respect him in the slightest. If he had been even slightly less of a flake he could have overrun Westros. He had the army to do it. Insted he chose to lounge about with his 'virgin' bride and hold tournies.

Catelyn Stark had the right of it when she told them that if she was their mother she would lock Stannis and Renly in a room together to work things out as brothers should.

Yeah, Cat was definitely right about that.

See, I always interpreted him as gathering strength by holding the tourneys. He was purposefully making a show about how many supporters he had. But maybe I'm just a fangirl.

I think you're right about him gathering support. He was. But that could be done on the warpath as easily as staying in a single place. Dany's doing just that, albeit her supporters aren't military for the most part. Robb Stark did the same. His supporters came to him wherever he was.

Lol, I'm almost considering changing my vote towards the dragons XD

I think you put together honor, morality and law here, but they're not the same thing, Stannis is the very definition of Lawful Neutral alignment (pardon me my D&D geekery here): he cares about upholding the law before all else. He allowed Mel to do her thing, for example, because he believes that he's the rightful king, and therefore getting the throne is his duty, even if he doesn't particularly care about it himself. Of course, he's not without his failings, and I see that he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times (mostly because the standards he sets are nearly impossible to uphold). I certainly wouldn't imply that he's the most honourable or the most moral person in Westeros. I definitely wouldn't want him anywhere in my close proximity, I just think that he's an interesting and compelling character (and quite hot too, in his way)

I'm a Stannis fangirl at heart.

I very much beleve that those who preach about morality and upholding the law are not the people who should be sending their magic-users to kill their enemies in the dark fromm behind.

He'd be a decent peace-time king, when there's a clear set of Rules he can play by, but the game he's trying to play has no rules and he still thinks it does. The result is that he can either cheat or loose. He is not the king I would want leading me to war. His grasp on good stratagy is nil.

This is going to sound at odds with what I said before, but where Renly didn't move at all, Stannis moved too fast. He didn't take the time to plan things properly. If he had, he would have seen the flaw in charging up a river in ships. The only time something like that works is when you have the manpower to back it, and he didn't.

Oh, really I'm not arguing that he's the best king imaginable (or even the best of the ones available), the best strategist, the most moral or something to that effect. Stannis is awesome, because he's interesting, imo - his principles, his compromises, his weird relationship with Mel (I've been saying in another topic that that is the relationship that probably interests me the most in the entire series so far), his bond with Davos. He's not nearly as unbending as he (and others close to him) like to present himself.

As for killing of Renly, it was an act of war - very much in accordance with Tywin's words about assassination of an enemy general being generally preferable to slaughtering of thousands on the battlefield. It was a good move, but Stannis felt very guilty about it afterwards, because he committed (or was complicit in committing) a kinslaying - that was what gnawed at him, not the assassination per se.

Stannis tries to uphold the law (not morality, mind. Not even honor, as Westerosi understand it), but he's often not rigid enough - or principled enough, phrase it any way you prefer - to sacrifice his own interests for it, that's what makes him interesting and human. On the other hand, he's the rightful king and thus (in his own mind) his interests are pretty much the law.

I personaly think that shooting an enemy general out of the saddle is quite acceptable, and best done from high up and far away, but I make no claims about upholding lordly honor either. That doesn't change the fact that he's being dishonest with himself about how he's acting. He's not so ridged as he's like to beleve himself, and that's fine. As you said, makes him interesting and entertaining.

My point isn't that he's aweful, evil, or boring. (though I admit to skipping bits with him in favor of more interesting happenings)It's that he himself doesn't seem to understand that there is no laws, and the rules he thinks he's playing by don't apply to the people he's fighting. The Lannisters will destroy him with polatics, if they can manage to stop killing each other for a while, and the Tyrells have the strength to beat him off if he's foolish enough to charge the gates again. I don't think he's a bad charicter, just that he lacks most of the traits that I personaly find interesting.

For the record, I think that Melisindre will go over to Dany the moment she sees the dragons. They're fire made flesh after all, and she'll want them more then anything Stannis can give her.

I'm not trying to be insulting or anything by the way, your poing of view is interesting, and I very much enjoy the discussion. you're making me think about a charicter that I've never noticed much before now. If you think I'm being rude, please call me on it, it's not my intention.

Lordly honor in the time of war goes down the bend, and Stannis, to his credit, understands that - he's not nearly as reckless as to try to uphold the law in the "everyone against everyone" type of situation, and "law-abiding" does not need to equal "suicidal". Kiling Renly was a perfectly acceptable wartime solution, the only stumbling block being that he killed his brother - and thus violated a much more ancient and profound law.

Stannis is an interesting paradox: unlike Ned, whose fatal flaw was his naivete - he genuinely believed that people were better than they really were - Stannis understands perfectly well that his enemies are often dishonest and treacherous, and that playing by the rules (whatever those rules of peaceful time might be) will only get him killed, and fast. After all, teh Lannisters committed the ultimate act of treason - they displaced the king's heirs with bastards, how can anyone believe a word they say? (note that I love the Lannisters also) But his basic psychologial makeup tells him to uphold the rules and act in accordance with them - and that clash between what he believes is the right thing to do and what the real world demands of him to do - is his most profound conflict. He tries to reconcile these two sides within himself - says that Renly was an usurper and deserved to die, for example, that killing him was his duty - but never quite manages to convince himself of that fully.

You're not offending me in any way, btw, I've dragged you into this discussion, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. English is not ny native language though, and I'm often afraid to appeat overly aggressive or sarcastic to people. If I'm not, that it's all good.

I really have no problem at all with what he did, it's good tactics to cut off the snake head before it had a chance to bite you, and the way he did it was practicle. I don't blame him in the slightest. I agree that his problem doesn't seem so much what he did, as who he did it to. If he managed to hold the Iron Throne for a while, it would be interesting to see how he deals with the true heir to the throne coming to challange him. After all, the Targaryens have held the throne for a very long time, and her claim is older then his whole House. Then again, she is female, and that might also play a part in things.

I have to wonder though, if and when people find out about how Renly died, how will they react to Stannis, who they don't much like as is. He's commited two crimes that Westros seems to have a huge problem with. He's both kingslayer and kinslayer.

The Lannisters are a fun lot. I like them better after seeing more of their POVs, and the treachery doesn't hurt any. Tyrion, as I said in my audition, is one of my favorite charicters. I've gotta say, Cercei got a lot more interesting when we found out that she loved Rhaegar. I hope we hear more about him from her as well. Well, if she survives this most recent bout of treachery. The Tyrells are quite good at it too.

Oh no, I'm not offended in the least, I was worried that I had insulted you, not the other way around. I'm surprised to hear that english isn't your first language, If you hadn't told me, I never could have guessed. If you don't mind my asking, what is your first language?

Well, first Stannis is not a kingslayer - Renly was no more a king than Mance Rayder was, for example, and even kinslaying is a little iffy - he didn't do it with his own hands, and probably didn't even give an explicit order. He wanted Renly dead and Mel took care of that, Stannis feels guilty, but did that fall under definition of kinslaying? Probably it did, but maybe not. Do they even have a definition?

Second, the folks believing Staannis' kinslaying, well, that would depend solely on whether Stannis will be on the winning side at the moment or not. That's the cynical reality that Stannis' incest messages amply demonstrated: the lords believe whatever they want to believe, depending on their political position. The Lannisters were in power then, and noone was going to lift a finger. As for whether the smallfolk would believe, frankly who cares.

Third, about Stannis' reaction to Dany, again it would largely depend on the political expediency of the moment. We don't know if he will even consider her a true heir - he just might declare that deposement of Aerys meant that the entire Targ dynasty lost their claim for good. We don't know the Westerosi customs regarding dynasty change, but our history suggests plenty of options for those who don't want to accept restoration of the old line. Ultimately though, might makes right, and if Dany will come with overwhelming force, he just might bend the knee, but I doubt it, personally. Add to this that Dany is female and barren... yeah, doubt it very much.

My first language is Russian, btw.

Who was a king is all a point of view, and I might add that he wished for Robb Stark's death as well. Condidering Joffrey's heritage, who exactly really is the king? When the Targaryen dynasty fell, Robert was named king, and the only reason it happened was that he took it. On that note, Robb was every bit the king Stannis beleved himself to be, as was Balon Grayjoy, because they fought for it. Even if they lost, a great many people kneeled and called them kings. Enough people that Stannis had to have them killed because he had no way to beat them otherwise.

I admit that Robb Stark's death was a product of stupidity and wounded pride, mixed in the worst possible way, but that Stannis wished for it makes me wonder. Balon Grayjoy was pushed off a bridge. The Ironborn are sorta the type to take credit for something like that if one of them had done it.

As for him not doing it with his own hands, I feel that the commander who orders a death is every bit as responsible as the one who does the deed. He had to know that Melisindre would kill her targets. There really wasn't any other way to get them out of the way. That is the same as having one of his archers put an arrow through their hearts, just a touch more elegant.

Westrosi customs regarding dynasty change seem to be, whoever had the biggest sword wins. Aegon had Balarion the Black Dread. Robert had the Lannisters and Aerys' maddness helping him.

If Dany comes sailing over from the east, he's going to have to bend knee, or she'll have Drogon fry him in his own castle like what happened at Harrenhal. If he's smart and very careful he could end up being one of her trusted advisors, but I suspect his misplaced sense of entitlement will prevent that.

She is female, but she's also a very good queen and a better stratagist. She has good people gaurding her, and she has the sense to listen to their advice, even if she doesn't go through with it. I have to wonder, also, if Dany's really barren. That could very well be the mad screeches of a crazed woman. Dany has yet to put that little issue to the test.

Actually, whoever was crowned in the Sept of Baelor is the king, it's not subjective, so Renly wasn't a king no matter how you slice it. He was at best a pretender with a bogus claim. Ultimately yes, might makes right, but even usurpers often have to back their claim with some sort of justification (Robert's relation to the Targ line), so no, killing Renly definitely wasn't kingslaying.

As for kinslaying I agree, Stannis is a kinslayer in every way that matters, he knows that himself, I'm just not convinced that he meet all the criteria to bring the curse on his head. Or maye the curse is self-imposed, who knows. After all, who's going to spill the beans? Only him and Mel know for sure, and Mel won't be telling anyone anything. Davos (another one who knows) will be dead soon.

Drogon won't be frying anyone in their castles, cause he simply won't be big enough fot that. By the end of ASoS the dragons are the size of ponies - by the time she arrives to Westeros, in approximately a year's time, there's no way they will be big enough to do significant battle damage. Mainly the symbols of her heritage, and she will have to play politicking with the rest of'em without much help from any flying plot devices.

Lastly, Dany is not a good queen (at least not yet), as for her strategic ability, don't get me started. She was in cheat-mode starting with hatching of the dragons, and if she met any adversary of at least Roose Bolton's caliber on her quest (let alone a Tywin or a Littlefinger) she'd be mincemeat by now. Her fertility was not tested yet, but I feel that her proven to be not barren would be the biggest cope-out in her story already full of cope-outs.

Can you say I don't like Dany? That's right, I don't.

Actualy, there'a a Dany chapter at the end of A Feast for Crows, and the dragons are getting quite large now. Also, According to the preveiws I've read, Dance of Dragons is six years later. She decided to stay and rule Meereen for a while to better understand what she was getting into.

She is a good queen, simply young. Yes she needs to do some growing up, but I'd like to point out that she managed to survive a number of things and she's come out ahead. Not all of those things were small either, such as Jorah's betrayel and Pyat Pree's attempt to give her to the 'Undying Ones'.

Her battle stratagy is efficiant. She makes good use of her ground troups while keeping her calvalry ready to break a line. There are no rules in war, so how can she cheat? Sending assasins in to raise the city was smart, and a good move. Betraying the cadre of slavers she bought the Unsullied from was a better one.

She listens to her advisors, and if they can provide a better idea she follows it. That also is the sign of a good ruler. The kings who have discarded their advisors have generaly gotten themselves killed. The same happens when they rely too much on only one advisor.

You're right, she has yet to meet anyone of Littlefinger's caliber, but I expect that Tyrion may end up joining her shortly. Should that happen, there will be considerable change where Westros is concerned, seeing as Tyrion regularly matched even the better schemers while he was in court.

There are other theorys about the Targaryen line, but there's no real proof for them for the time being so I won't bother debating them.

As far as the Baelor's Sept thing, If that's so then Joffrey really was the true king, as is Tommen, seeing as they've both been crowned, and Stannis is every bit the kingslayer I said, because he also asked for the death of Joffrey. Bastard or no, the boy was crowned.

Yes, Joffrey was the true king, technically, as is Tommen. Who else? Robb wasn't really a king, much less Balon, under currrent legitimacy. If there was time to establish another legitimacy, things might have changed, but at that moment they were both separatist warlords. And any way, wishing does not equal doing, whoever poisoned Joff was a kingslayer yes, but Stannis? Hardly. We don't even know if Mel's curse worked, she says so, but what proof do we have? Nothing. With Renly, there's a clear connection that she acted fulfilling Stannis' wishes, birthing the shadow that killed Renly - that was clear cause and effect.

Second, why do you think that 6 years might have passed before ADWD, I avoid spoilers, but did GRRM not say that the events in ADWD largely overlap with AFFC? He planned the 5-years gap initially, but scrapped it for whatever reason in favour of the uninterrupted timeline. The dragons were the size of large dogs the last time we saw them - they won't reach the fighting size the time Dany gets to Westeros, just no way without some weird time compression. And burning some unsuspecting defenceless goons is quite different from burning castles.

What I meant by cheat-mode, is not that she cheats, personally - I wouldn't begrudge her that, everyone cheats, within their capabilities. I meant that she's allowed the amount of plot protection that's unheard of for other characters (save possibly Jon). She doesn't suffer any meaningful losses, all her plans always work to perfection, no matter how stupid they ware, and when something bad is about to happen, dragons, cities and noble knights fall into her lap. She got sold to a bloodthirsty slaving reaver, but he fell in love with her and treated her decently. Then she needed to be single to rule in her own right, and her husband conveniently died, along with her child, leaving her with an independent sourse of power. And she even gets dragons as a side effect - sweet. Her last remaining relative got killed, but he was a psychopatic asshat anyway, so who cares. She needed an army - and look, there was those godawful slavers with unquestionably loyal robot army, who were conveniently stupid enough to not guess that some of their clients might want to turn their soldiers against them and introduce some kind of failsafe for that eventuality. And moronic enough to sell her their entire army without any guarantees. She is about to get assassinated? Ser Barristan the Weatherwane rides in right on schedule and saves her. And so forth. Dany's story is rife with such shortcuts, that's why it feels to me that GRRM cheats with her development. That's why I don't like her character - the authorial fiat puts me right off. But I expect the playing field to level somewhat once she gets to Westeros - that's why I think that dragons will never be significant battle units, and that her relationship with Tyrion won't be anywhere near cosy-rosy. Once she steps on Westeros soil, I expect no more cheat-codes for Dany. Of course I might be wrong, but that would lower my enjoyment of the rest of the books significantly.

I could be mistaken about the year-gap, the article I read was in a language I don't read very well. I was puzzling it out most of the way, and it would have been easy to miss a sentance that clarified things.

In the chapter at the end of FfC the dragons were large enough to carry off a sheep or person, and Dany didn't appear to be moving from Meereen any time soon. They're growing quickly.

I'd like to know which of her ideas was stupid. To my count, the only really bad decicions she's made was trying to cross the wastes and banishing Jorah as opposed to killing him. The rest seem to be quite reasonable, though they need some polishing.

Yeah, Drogo fell in love with her. Even bloodthirsty slaving reavers can do that. A great many kings have loved their consorts, even the rutheless ones. I'd say that loosing her ability to have children is a pretty big wrench in the gears and loosing her husband and child in the process? If that's not meaningful I'm not sure what is. That's something that hasn't gone right for her, and it's something she can do nothing about.

Visaerys dying was all his own fault. He was greedy, and mad. If he had been able to put his revenge on the back burner to cook for a while he wouldn't have died. I don't blame her for not morning him. He was crazed and abusive. His death was worse, in many ways, then others, but she had no cause to prevent it. He'd been abusing her since her birth and finaly sold her to a man he'd assumed would rape her or worse.

As for Barristan showing up to save her, I'll give you that one. His showing up when and where he did was difficult to integrate into plausibility. This is fantasy though, and there are some gaps that have to be overlooked.

Dany went looking for the Unsullied, they didn't appear out of nowhere, and killing the slavers that made them was pure practicality. Those slavers were careless, and I doubt that they'd thought that anyone would buy -all- the soldiers they had at once. A single century would be easily defeated by the remaining thousands. Again, greed brought them down. They jumped in too quickly and it cost them everything.

I admit that she has some conveniances, but it is logical for her to have them. No, nothing desperately horrible has happened to her, but if you look at it a different way, Sansa Stark is just the same. Her family has died in a number of bad ways, but that is no different then Dany, seeing as Dany's family, save Visaerys, was dead before she could ever meet them. The death of Joffery was shocking for Sansa, but before she could be grabbed or even spotted, she managed to escape, and how conveniant that Littlefinger loved her mother so, and is willing to move the stars for the daughter that should have been his.

What I'm saying is that Dany's run of luck is not unique to her. It's there for everyone.

Tyrion seems to escape impossible situations as a matter of habit. The Hound got brought back to life. Arya's managed most of her adventure compleatly unharmed, save for the events in FfC, dispite being in several battles.

Cercei Lannister got wedded off to a drunken womaniser, but it did her no real harm. He was too stupid to even notice that the children weren't his. She went right ahead with her little plots and plans and until recently, she's done quite well for herself. Pure luck though, that Robert didn't remember not sleeping with her. More luck when Renly and Stannis attacked each other rather then her. Still -more- luck that Tywin Lannister showed up when he did in order to save the city from the misguided battle on the river. And watch, I suspect that she'll get out of her current pickle alive.

Re: the dragons' size, we'll see eventually, I still think they won't grow enough to represent a significant (game-changing) battle power - that just wouldn't be realistic, as far as you can apply the word to flying fire-breathing magical beasts.

Dany's stupid decisions: bringing Drogo back to life; abolising slavery in that city (forgot the name) and laeving it to its own devices, the plan for taking that other city (forgot the name again) which consisted of mostly sitting around waiting for a convenient secret passage that noone previously knew about to present. itself. All of them worked out just dandy without any loss on her part. Again, I'm not talking about losses in a human sense - Dany is not a real person, she's a fictional character with a certain storyline. For a real human being losing her husband and an unborn child would be a terrible tragedy, but for a fictional character in Dany's position it served to further her quest for power without any drawbacks: she would never be allowed to rule in her own right if she had a husband and/or a male child. Losing them gave her liberty to pursue her own goal and acquirre her own power base. If she's truly barren, then yes, it's a drawback plot-wise (not a terribly important one, as a queen might appoint anyone as her heir, but still), but as you've been saying yourself, the issue is iffy so far.

The slavers were colossally stupid not to foresee the possibility of someone turning their unversal soldiers on them. They're businessmen; when I was reading that part, I couldn't believe that not a single one of them suspected that the deal was hairy in the extreme. They were even more stupid to not install some kind of failsafe in the Unsullied's psychological conditioning. That was on par with Jon the Lord Commander development which also demanded the IQ of all the characters surrounding the protagonist being lowered to that of 7-year olds.

Re: Dany's luck, most of your explanations are valid, and any of these occurrences taken in isolation would be perfectly acceptable. It's their entire sequence that breaks the credibility. It's one happy coincidence piled on top of another. As for comparison with other characters, I agree, they got some plot armor too, Jon most of all (he's the most alike to Dany in that regard), but also Tyrion the Berserk Warrior (a deformed dwarf who barely can walk without help. Right), Arya and her suspicious amount of luck and so forth. What is the difference with Dany here, is that that allows them to stay alive, but hardly lead them to succeed. Arya is alive yes, but she's a member of a death cult rapidly losing her identity. Tyrion, I'm convinced, is being set up as the main villain of the series. Cersei is a failure in any and every aspect. They had some luck yes, but it didn't allow them to pile success atop of success atop of success - they merely stayed alive. Arya wanted to get home, but she's now farther from home than ever. Sansa is as much of a pawn as she ever was. Tyrion wanted his family's approval - he's now completely alienated from it. Jaime wanted to love Cersei and to be a knight - well, we all know how that one turned out. Catelyn wanted her children safe and prosperous - she lost all of then and became a vengeance demon in the process. Dany's path, on the other hand, was a smooth sailing from a powerless pushover girl to a queen with an army, dragons, loyal advisors etc. That's the core difference.

Oh, and I agree with you, that Cersei will get out of the Church's paws alive. Jaime burning the letter was a total red herring - he'll be riding to KL hell for leather to somehow try and save her. He may not love her anymore, but he's not about to leave her to die.

Re: Drogo's death and ressurection. The spin I saw on Drogo's ressurection was less, him being brought back to life, and more her wanting him healed. I don't think she knew he'd died, only that he was comatose, and she did correct that mistake herself once she saw it for what it was. The loss of the huge army she'd hoped to use to take over her homeland doesn't count as a drawback? Dany lost all but a hundred or so of the hundred thousand that Drogo commanded. The danger of her late husband's rivals forced her into the wastes where she lost more of her people.

Re:The plan for taking the city via the sewers... Well, have you ever read the story of the Trojan Horse? Troy was under seige for seven years. They couldn't get into the city, and those inside couldn't get out, but it was a standstill. That's how seiges work unless one side or the other has something to give them the advantage.

As you said, she is a charicter in a fantasy novel. She has a set plotline, and she will continue on it until the finish. What would you have happen to her? Mr. Martin really can't just kill her off randomly, it has to fit the plot, and clearly he's setting her up for something. She can't just stall out, that wouldn't make for much of a story. She's already lost one army, it's not plausible for her to loose a second without a battle that wiped them out.

You say that she's had too many wonderful coincidences, and I agree, but I also don't see how she could go any other way. She couldn't go to ground, that's what Arya's doing. Nor can she charge in without an army, so she had to have one. There isn't much middle ground to be had without repeating what someone else is doing. I think she's going to stay in Meereen until the dragons are ready to fight. She keeps saying that she doesn't wish to do battle in Westeros without them. There will be problems with that of course. Giant flying, fire-breathing, lizards eat a whole lot, and they're not picky about what it is they eat. Keeping them fed will be a problem Dany probably hasn't considered.

As far as everyone else is concerned, Arya's becoming one of the same group as her friend Jaquin, the assasin who arranged for the very unpleasent death of several people. It also took her out of the reach of her enemies for the moment. She wants to loose her identity, she's been insisting that she's no one for a while now.

Sansa's still a pawn, but she's learning the master-lier's art form Littlefinger at the same time. He's gaurding her and using her, but she's learning a great many things form him while he does.

-snerk- Tyrion the Berserk Warrior. Yes, I agree with you there, and having tried to heft one of those great-axes once, I know how likely it is that Tyrion could manage one and stay on a horse at the same time. Or at all really, they tend to swing whomever tries to swing them.

Jaime and Catelyn both got more then their share of pain, and while Catelyn walked into it, Jaime got dragged. He at least tries to be honorable in his own way, it just keeps not really working. She tried to be a good mother, but never returned to the two young children left alone at Winterfell. I wonder though, if Jaime will actualy do anything about Cercei. I think it more likely that Varys, or someone else, will get her out via a hidden tunnel, same as Tyrion.

No, loss of the khalasar does not count as a setback, because a) they were never going to conquer Seven Kingdoms with it anyway, that plan was pure folly from the start. Most likely, they would've gotten hammered down before even disembarking; and b) had they, against all reason, conquered Westeros, the Iron Throne would've been Drogo's, and after him - Rhaego's, and Dany would'nt have ever entered the equation.

I know the story of the Troyan Horse, and Dany's taking of whatever city does not fall under that category: Ulysses found a way to infiltrate the city through his own cunning (feigning the festivities, than leaving the horse as an offering to the gods). Dany just got the secret passage location because of dumb luck. Not the same thing at all.

I don't know what Martin should've done to make the character's storyline less contrived, but then, I'm not a prise winning, globally famous fantasy novelist. I'm just saying that the character fell flat for me, and why. I actually liked Dany in the first book, thought that she was clever and resourceful (though "I'm the blood of the dragon" schtick got obnoxious fast), but after the slavers I just couldn't abide her anymore. It didn't help that the oriental world around her was poorly developed and stuffed to the brim with cartoonish exotics, and the secondary characters in ther chapters were pretty much indistinguishable from each other (the sole exception being Mormont).

Re: Sansa and Arya, I agree that they both reached some new state, but that falls under definition of normal character development; after all, about three years have passed in Westeros, noone's going to stay the same all that time. They had some successes, some failures, their goals changed accordingly, and mostly they were just trying to stay alive.

Re: Catelyn, she WAS a good mother, I think, and didn't stay in Winterfell simply because Robb needed her more. Younger boys needed her too, of course, but they were well looked after. Robb, she felt (and with a good reason) would've been lost without her counsel. Not to mention that Robb's mission was more important to survival of all the North, and, by extention, her younger children as well.

Re: Cersei, I feel that political implications fo her trial to the entire realm and for the Lannisters in particular are so significant (basically, handing the church the right to do criminal proceedings was never, ever a good idea), that Jaime just can't afford to act as a scorned lover here. He HAS to try to save her, not for Cersei himself, but for the future of his family and Tommen. Not to mention Cersei is still the Queen-Regent and thus his liege lady, and he's sworn to protect her. Of course being Jaime, he might let his anger and outrage overcome his good sense, but that wouldn't be advisable.

Varys left the KL, so no hidden way out for Cersei. :)

I don't know what Martin should've done to make the character's storyline less contrived, but then, I'm not a prise winning, globally famous fantasy novelist.

So I guess your beef is with George, not with his creation Daenerys. So I guess that sorta invalidates all your arguments for the many ways Daenerys is not a figure of success, doesn't it.

Win or Die

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